, mitch mcconnell have made it clear, you want $1 trillion of more debt ceiling, because that's what the president is running, $1 trillion more debts, you have to cut it at the same time. they won it a year ago. they'll win it in the future. this is a long fight. it's four years of a fight. it's not one week of a fight. to your earlier question, does the president want to take us over the cliff? i think now he does. the reason is he needs an excuse for the next four years of failure. blaming it on bush doesn't work very much. the regulations and spending he's put on the economy for the next four years is going to put us in recession regardless of the fiscal cliff. >> to be fair, i'm told there are a number of republicans, especially in the house, who want to go over the cliff for the reason i explained, that they'd much rather vote for a tax cut than a tax increase because they don't want to break your pledge. grover, thank you very much. appreciate it. >> no one should break their pledge. >> merry christmas. thank you, grover. >> merry christmas to you. >> ahead on "starting point,"